Template Monster: Public Service Announcement

Tmonster

You said> Tmonster:

Current $500 contest participants:

1. Merlinpa1969
2. Kuroi

I replied> kuroi:

My private request to you to see the PSD was to be able to evaluate the genuineness of your intent, i.e. to see if the design would be a fair reflection of Zen Cart's native capabilities, or whether the deck would be stacked to favor tables-based layouts - not to blindly enter the contest!

To which you responded> Tmonster:

Here is the updated list of participants:

1. Kuroi
2. Website Rob

and then> Tmonster:

Here is the updated list of participants:

1. Kuroi
2. Website Rob
3. Portali

For me the contest's only value is as a mechanism to convey information to you that will allow you to create templates that your customers can actually use with Zen Cart as it was intended and as a means to assess how serious you really are about producing templates whose quality of construction matches their elegance of design.

Sadly, your more recent posts seem to be completely focussed on promoting this gimmicky contest whilst studiously avoiding dealing with the actual issues that your customers are bring to us and to which Kobra is drawing your attention. Far from being a solution to the real issue, the contest is looking increasingly like a way of distracting attention from what really needs to be addressed, and I would ask that you stop using my name to try to legitimise it.

Kuroi, I don't understand your post?

A PSD is nothing more than graphic file which can be sliced 'n diced any whichway you want. Why would you want to see it beforehand?

Hi Rob

You are right that a PSD can be diced and sliced however you want, but even as a collection of slices, it's still static. The real challenge is to ensure that the dynamic template continues to match the static image, and doesn't fall apart, when you lose control over some of the factors that determine how it works such as the product image size or description length used by the site owner, the font size increased or decreased by a site visitor, a switch to a liquid layout or a different site width by the site owner.

This is inherently more difficult when implementing templates than sites since for a site you can agree some of these parameters up front with the site owner and restrict the number of eventualities of which you must take account. For a template you don't have that luxury. But let's take a look at my specific concern.

My logic runs as follows: well-structured XHTML/CSS layouts are lighter and more easily maintainable than tables-based layouts. And in theory there's not much you can do with tables that you can't also do with lighter mark-up and CSS. Sadly the practise is rather different. There are some great features of the the current CSS standards that (despite being out since 1998) Internet Explorer still doesn't support and therefore can't really be used. Display tables would be right at the top of this list. When these are finally available cross browser, tables-based layouts really will get drop kicked into touch. But there're not.
:(

Both the other carts for which Template Monsters offers templates are still tables-based and Zen cart has not long escaped their shackles, so unsurprisingly TM's designs tend to reflect this type of structure. TM have gotten around the IE limitations (whether that was their motivation or not) by producing very complex markup. It would be very easy for them to unwittingly produce a design that could only be implemented dynamically by means of this type of complex markup.
However, when fellis, who has spent time in this thread defending his markup, posted that he would make the PSD available in 10 days, I started to get suspicious that there might even be a plan afoot to engineer the PSD to include features that would be difficult to implement in order to "prove" that this type of markup was necessary to achieve templates of the visual quality that TM produces.

I hope not. Tmonster has seemed reasonably sincere in his posts in this thread, and I hope that this is not an attempt to head off bad PR, but rather a genuine attempt to engage with the Zen Cart community to learn how to do things better.

Both the other carts for which Template Monsters offers templates are still tables-based

I'm very sorry, but wanna disappoint you because all our zen-cart 1.3 themes are only css based. the only table that is used in code is shopping cart table:)

concerning others templates - we have a category named CSS templates - and if you browse it, you will see nice clean styles templates coded without tables.

fellis:

I'm very sorry, but wanna disappoint you because all our zen-cart 1.3 themes are only css based. the only table that is used in code is shopping cart table:)Whyever would I be disappointed that your Zen Cart 1.3 themes are CSS-based. My disappointment is that the underlying XHTML markup is so terrible. You nest DIVs like people used to nest tables and even still use spacer gifs. Why?

fellis:

concerning others templates - we have a category named CSS templates - and if you browse it, you will see nice clean styles templates coded without tables.That's great. Why don't you use these skills on your Zen Cart templates?

Just an addendum to what I see as a lack of sincerity on Tmonster's part....

I have posted 2 very recent Template Monster issue threads - and in looking back at these a couple of things:

1. TM is not genuinley interested in correcting nor assisting individuals with their template problems and have not possibly even looked at the threads that I posted

2. If they have looked - they have not offered the posters here in this forum any possible solutions to the issues.

Now that we are aware that TM is here, if their true interest is in providing templates that work and/or moving in that direction why are they not assisting the individuals that have already purchased their products and are experiencing issues?

Seems to be status quo - They sell a sub-standard product and it is left to the purchaser and this community to attempt to correct these issues.

I second kurio's skeptisim at the actual intentions of TM in their "contest" as feel that this is only a ploy to attempt to save their tarnished reputation in the Zen Cart template area.

What this thread has confirmed one thing for me more then any other, that template monster, really is a monster.
So where do we go from here? how do we convey to people who are newer to Zen Cart, that template monster is a sub standard option, for look and feel. I mean I am not a designer by any means but I do know that 70 bucks for a template is a good deal.
Should the downloads section id this site be revamped to have images of potential template solutions?
Could the install instructions be more promoting of the template previews site, and the template downloads section.

These are just Ideas that I am throwing out there. We have established a problematic trend, and as programers and part of this OS community we should look to other options besides template monster improving their ways.

JOsh

sanguisdesign,

A difficult issue - as most of the downloadable templates are designed as "starting points" and not as polished frontends. This is mostly, from my perspective, due to one template never being the pinicale of all things that can be acheived.

And that users alwalys have their "I want" lists and there in lies the issue for any template - TM's included. How to allow customization. I think that the "generic" offerings are fully customizable and within the conventions of the settings available in Zen Cart, but being "generic" they do not offer the initial impact like a polished template does.

I suppose that using one or more of these and placing a polished edge on them and then providing an area for viewing these and stating that this is based upon the FREE downloadable template "whatever name" might assist.

Issue that I see is that even with the default "Information" side box for example; that there are dozens of posts on how do I remove or add to this. So no matter what design one places up for viewing there will be requests to change this or that and then only for the individual that can see beyond the underlying layout.

Basic goal should be in maintaining the basic functionality of the available settings in the admin. Then building out from there...

I've only read a few of the posts in this thread, including the first post.To be honest I just can't be f&^%in bothered to read the rest.And quite frankly, I can take a good guess that they're pretty much saying the same thing.
I just felt the need to add my post and state that I am absolutely disgusted with this template monster issue.I too have also purchased a "monster", ironically to "save me time and hassle".Geezus! that scenario really should be the definition of IRONIC! because all I have had with the monster template is hassle, and it has cost me a lot of time and money.Money for the cost of the template itself, and loss of money with my site not being live yet.

Personally I hold zen cart team themselves equally responsible for this continuing mess.Of course they do not design the monster templates, and they also do not seem to actively endorse them.However, this thread goes back to January and there have probably been similar postings before that.So, zen cart have been aware of this situation yet have done nothing to prevent other people who put their faith in zen cart, becoming victims.
For pity sake, why wasn't a warning put on the zen cart site clearly stating: "STAY CLEAR OF MONSTER TEMPLATES FOR ZEN CART! THEY DO NOT WORK CORRECTLY AND WILL INHIBIT ZEN CARTS FUNCTIONALITY"
At this point I am trying my best, with the help of people here, to somehow make my site work, despite the monster template.But would I suggest zen cart to other people? Nope! Not until this site officially and clearly makes that statement about monster templates.It's a matter of principle.
If the zen cart team make no stand about this and allow others to become victims of template monster, then why the hell should I do you any favours.

flex22,

As just a poster here- you are entitled to your personal opinion - but there are numerous threads on this not just this one and the position of the Zen Cart team is not one of making statements on other products one way or the other.

It is "caveat' emptor", just as it has been for centuries, It is IMO - your responsibility to research any purchase that you might be making and this should have included searching this site for any issues "Pro" or "Con" about anything related to an item that you are considering.

Not being endorsed is only a partial clue as there are many good items that either do not seek endorsement or are not granted endorsement for various reasons. Any and all negociations are conducted privately and rightly so.

Again, while you are entitled to your opinion I personally do not concur with your disapointment in Zen Cart and their non-stance around this supplier. No one forced you to make the purchase, this was a decision, good or bad, that you made on your own and possibly without fully researching it pre-hand.
Whose responsibility is that?

I'm angry, wtf do you want me to say.So you don't agree with me.Would you be surprised if I didn't really give a damn.
You don't concur, so flamin what! You know, seriously, as if I care.As if I'm going to take back everything I've just said because now someone who's "obviously" more intellectually adept than I has clearly explained the situation to a mad man such as myself.
Here's a tip: I'm not waiting for you to come and point this stuff out to me.So don't bother! Go play a game of Ping Pong or something if you've got 5 minutes spare.

The thing that's really hilarious is you think that I've not considered the other sides of this.You think that because someone has a very strong opinion, then they must exclusively see things from that narrow view.Therefore it is your duty as a member of the higher echelon of mental capabilities to come here and point out my errors.Again I say, I consciously chose to air that opinion, because that was my decision.Now go play some Ping Pong, it's much more fun.

"The only difference between a madman and myself is that I am not mad"
~ Dalí

<rant> > **flex22:** > > I'm angry, wtf do you want me to say.So you don't agree with me.Would you be surprised if I didn't really give a damn. > You don't concur, so flamin what! You know, seriously, as if I care.As if I'm going to take back everything I've just said because now someone who's "obviously" more intellectually adept than I has clearly explained the situation to a mad man such as myself. > Here's a tip: I'm not waiting for you to come and point this stuff out to me.So don't bother! Go play a game of [Ping Pong](http://durota.ru/games/1/1397/play.html) or something if you've got 5 minutes spare. > > The thing that's really hilarious is you think that I've not considered the other sides of this.You think that because someone has a very strong opinion, then they must exclusively see things from that narrow view.Therefore it is your duty as a member of the higher echelon of mental capabilities to come here and point out my errors.Again I say, I consciously chose to air that opinion, because that was my decision.Now go play some Ping Pong, it's much more fun. > > "The only difference between a madman and myself is that I am not mad" > *~ Dalí* </rant> Flex22 needs rant tags ;) and a hug :hug: But what I would really like to say to flex22 is, I am sorry that you feel hurt, and I would encourage you to continue in the fight to get you site going. I am glad that you have found people in this community to help you. As far as endorsements on the zen cart site go I am glad that the ZC team does not take the time to endorse or not endorse companies. That give them more time to create good code. Also I want to thank you for speaking your mind about Template monster, now there is one more anti endorsement of Template Monster on this site, for people to find, from someone who matters more then the untested opinions of the ZC team. You as an unsatisfied customer have a more valuable opinion against TM. It's real crappy when any one get burned. Could I ask if you (flex22) could provide a neutral way of helping some one get to the zen cart template downloads section?

JOsh

I would have to agree that ZenCart.com is correct in not endorsing any Templates they have not throughly checked out and determined "their" criteria has been reached. Be it Free or Pay-for, anyone can offer Templates but whether they work as advertised or intended, is based upon personal knowledge & experience.

TM is taking a hit for their Templates because people have paid money for them and run into problems. Well, people also have problems with Free Templates. A quick search in this Forum will give one an idea of the various problems. And before we get into a debate over "Free or Pay-for" Templates, I also agree that false or misleading advertising should not be condoned -- which, I think, is the crux of the matter with TM Templates.

Just a small note: a forum search for the word 'monster' yielded 232 results. How much more warning should anyone get?

I've been following this thread for awhile now while I have been trying to get my site up and running. I had used Zencart back when it was only version 1.2 and liked the way it worked and looked so when I had the bright idea to start something up again, I decided that this time I would skip the hassle of building something from scratch and just buy a premade template. I learned the hard way that I should have done some research first. I did a search for zencart templates and up popped template monster. I bought a template, tried to get it working on my site and failed miserably. I'm sure it would have worked fine if I hadn't wanted to customize anything. I liked the design but wanted it to be more my own so I changed some of the layout boxes and the way products were displayed. It screwed EVERYTHING up. I figured it was just me and began searching here to fix the problem. I spent weeks trying to just get my site to function right. I can't count how many times I wiped everything and started all over again from scratch. When I would do things that zencart says to do, like turn boxes on and off, the whole site would crash.

I read a lot on this post and ended up downloading their free template to see if it was any better. I changed the graphics out, moved things around and tried to make it look like the one I had bought thinking that the coding in the free template was more zencart compliant. I don't know that it was any better. I kept running into DIV tags everywhere I turned. Things were hard coded in and I couldn't find where it was.

I have since built my site from scratch. I still have a long way to go and I understand the frustration that others are having with template monster. I don't blame zencart in anyway, I mean, Hey, it's free! Template monster is a monster though. I understand "Buyer beware" but it's a hard lesson to learn when it is because of false advertising on the sellers part.

I don't think zencart endorsing anyplace would help. I bought the template and they weren't endorsed. How would I even know to look for a place that was endorsed unless I came here and did a search. I could have easily have done a search for template monster and found these posts. I'm just mad that Template Monster isn't doing anything to fix the problem. They just took my money and ran.

Sorry for a late reply here and thanks for your active participation. First of all I would like to to respond to Kuroi.

The proposal of fellis to deliver the PSD in ten days was intended not to make "modifications" to it - it is ready and we are going to use the existing PSD, but to wait and see how many participants are going to subscribe and deliver the psd to everyone at the same time. I think this is the only fair way to run the contest - correct me if I am wrong. I am terribly sorry if I did not make this clear from the very beginning.

As for the intention to move the attention to the contest instead of the subject of this discussion - I do not think it can be true because the contest really does not get too much attention, if you take a look how the discussion continues. I think the contest could be a great help for everyone to see that we are facing real difficulties during the production process and after we have a public case study we will be able to focus on specific issues and then produce an example of Zen cart template that will satisfy the majority of customers (there is no way to satisfy ALL customers).

As for Kobra's comment about not helping individuals - this forum is not our official support channel - and cannot be used for this purpose. We provide ticket support, phone support to our customers and there are over 16 people working in support team to help with their request. I do not have any intention to ask them to come here and resolve the issues here. Because before they ask for the support they have to provide their transaction details and their personal data - and there are privacy policy issues, financial issues etc. The goal of our presence in this community is to identity the trends of the major problems - then to find the way to correct them and then correct them finally. And that's all.

P.S. If you think that we have no future to produce normal ZC templates - I would better make a decision to stop the production of them and focus on other engines than on fighting here. I feel tired hearing here that we are "making money" or "cheating customers" - ZC templates are not even 1% of our revenue and if somebody wants to "make a lot of money" they can easily enter this niche and see themselves what's inside.

nu2u2:

I'm just mad that Template Monster isn't doing anything to fix the problem. They just took my money and ran.

I have checked your email address in your profile and tried to search for support tickets and found nothing. I believe you used another email during the purchase. Could you please send me the private message with your purchase details. We will try to investigate your particular issue and resolve it.

Note to others: First thing you have to do is to inquiry the support. If they don't help - you can always submit a complaint form here: http://www.templatemonster.com/support.php. The complaint form is being checked by specialized department supervising the quality of our support. They have enough power to manage any issue from pushing needed people to firing responsible managers.

After reading posts like this: http://www.zen-cart.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67407

I am thinking about the idea to sell designs only and let users to find people who provide coding themselves. Do you think it might change the situation?

OK :smartalec:...
Now that you are back - what about helping these posters where you already have taken their money:
One issue
Another issue
As you have their funds already are you not interested that they are satisfied?

For what you have posted a question about, at least there has been no expenditure on their part.

kobra:

OK :smartalec:...
Now that you are back - what about helping these posters where you already have taken their money:
One issue
Another issue
As you have their funds already are you not interested that they are satisfied?

For what you have posted a question about, at least there has been no expenditure on their part.

Thanks for pointing the issues. We will take measures to help them.